# 7th May 25

**Meeting Recording:**

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IosfRS3jsY0>

**Attendees:**

<table><thead><tr><th width="100">First name</th><th width="117">Last name</th><th width="399">Role</th><th>Voting Member</th></tr></thead><tbody><tr><td>Neil</td><td>Davies</td><td>TSC Member (PN Solutions)</td><td>Y</td></tr><tr><td>Matt</td><td>Davis</td><td>Intersect - Tech Ops Lead</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Markus</td><td>Gufler</td><td>TSC Member (Cardano Foundation)</td><td>Y</td></tr><tr><td>Benjamin</td><td>Hart</td><td>TSC Member (MLabs)</td><td>Y</td></tr><tr><td>Jonathan</td><td>Kelly</td><td>TSC Member</td><td>Y</td></tr><tr><td>Ricky</td><td>Rand IOHK</td><td>IOE General Manager - Observer</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Duncan</td><td>Soutar</td><td>TSC Secretary</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Christian</td><td>Taylor</td><td>Intersect - Opensource Head</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Adam</td><td>Dean</td><td>TSC Vice Chair</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Duncan</td><td>Coutts</td><td>WellTyped - Not voting member</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>Faizan</td><td>Shaikh</td><td>Observer</td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>

**Minutes:**

<table><thead><tr><th width="162">Agenda Item</th><th width="417">Discussion</th><th>Actions / Decisions</th></tr></thead><tbody><tr><td>Apologies</td><td>Kevin Hammond</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>1. Discontinuation of WellTyped and PNSol within IOG - Impact on Delivery</td><td>ND: 30th April several people in original version of maintenance contract, were terminated with IOG - welltyped and IOG<br>RR: Confirmed both PNSol &#x26; Welltyped contracts were terminated<br>ND: Queried who will substitute these roles<br>RR: Confirmed that both internal movements with IOG &#x26; new contracting hires will backfill<br>ND: Queried teams that will be most impacted<br>RR: Networking team but not expecting any delays in delivery<br>DC: Welltyped staff not involved in immediate upcoming deliveries apart from KES Agent, which he believes will be delayed but is not time-critical. Highlighted that it can take a long time for new members to join and get up to speed with Networking Team (est 6 months or more)<br>DC: Decision will definitely impact delivery of Leios and LSM integration. The contract between Intersect and WellTyped for LSM creation will not be impacted. Highlighted that LSM integration does have F-F relationship with Leios. Highlighted that there is now a potential capacity issue related to Leios Delivery of approximately 7 people.<br>MD: Highlights that from the TSC’s perspective this conversation needs to be focussed on IOG’s ability to deliver rather than on individuals and that IOG are welcome to work and partner with whomever they choose.<br><br>Connection between LSM &#x26; Leios:<br>DC: Both address scalability. Highlighting that the 1000TPS target from Leios will not be hit without LSM. Due to cost and performance, targeted throughput will not be achieved.<br>ND: Without LSM, there would be cliffs in performance.<br>AD: Needs LSM as first step to Leios.<br>DC: LSM is still essential even without Leios. Highlights that Amaru will potentially have this capability straight away. Points out that Next step it to move more ledger state things onto disk, such as tables)<br>JK: LSM integration is needed for SPOs to be able to reduce memory footprint.<br>DC: First phase is just EUTXO on disk, this should not be too interrupted but rest of ledger state onto disk is far more likely to be an issue.<br>ND: Highlights perceived risk due to this.<br></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>2. Repo adoption (including KES agent)</td><td>AD: Following from last week’s discussion on ownership of KES-Agent rpo migration to Intersect. Highlights concern over bringing it over to Intersect for maintenance and management.<br>DC: Highlights major “corner cut” - KES key handing was not implemented in full when delivering Shelley. That being that KES Key Handling was not implemented in full.<br>Highlights that Forward Security was not achieved in full despite having KES Keys due this shortcut which was the the KES Keys are stored on disk.<br>Highlights that KES Zero Keys are stored on disk and therefore it is not as practical as a digital signature and full security has not been achieved. KES keys are stored on disk, which should not be the case. Current KES 0 key rotates on 90 day period and as it is stored on disk it cannot be deleted reliably. Thereforedoes not achieve the Forward Security properties.<br>KES Agent projects addresses this to achieve forward security.<br>There are significant advantages to users for implementing this in which is outlined in original white paper.<br>Acknowledges this may be a hard sell to SPOs, need to figure out how to implement this in a way that is "not too annoying", additionally this will be news to many SPOs.<br><br>AD: This feels like an exercise in academia. Are we doing this just because it was in a white paper 8 years ago? Needs a behavious change from SPOs for adoption which may be a challenge.<br>DC: Acknowledges this is not a great situation. This is about benefit of users of the system.<br>Can either try to persuade community of the need for KES Agent OR if the community wishes, we could simply stop working on it and not achieve full forward security.<br>JK: Implementation Questions: Is there is a need for a high availability server, in order to maintain KES Key? Also KES agent has no authentication built in. Therefore concerned about leveraging interconnected SSH tunnels which would be an issue for some. Highlights need for eductaion and best practice documentation.<br>AD: Query of whether this falls under TSC or Opensource ownership? Would this be something that could be supported through Opensource funding? Would Welltyped be interested in raising through community contribution and mantenance.<br>DC: Acknowledges he has a conflict of interest being both an employee of WellTyped and TSC member.<br>DC: Argues that this is part of core as it is a key dependency of node. . However due to point 1 on agenda the person working on this is nolonger working on this.<br>AD: Points out that IOG’s budget proposal was highlighted as delivery by Welltyped and the query of how this will now be delivered.<br>MG: Highlights that there is currently a lot of critical work like the KES Agent where there is uncertainty of delivery. Question on whether there will be a public declaration of how these kind of security issues will be managed in the future. Seeks clarity on the role of the TSC to be able to challenge on issues such as these.<br>DS: Acknowledges that that the roles and responsibilities of committees has come into question throughout this budget process. Shared that Jack, Board and the Committees need to work together to establish the new roles andresponsibilities of the committee.<br>MG: NHighlighted importance TSC being decision maker and not simply just frontmen. Acknowledges that there can be issues that need to be handled privately but “security issues” cannot be used an an excuse to limit transparency. This is especially important when DReps are being asked to make decisions on budget potentially without full information.<br>ND: Highlights that lack of KES Agent would be a significant issue in the banking industry for using Cardano and therefore is important to utility and corporate adoption.<br>DC: Need to help communicate the need for KES Agent with SPOs<br></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>3. IOE Maintenance contract clarification</td><td>RR: Query over progression of maintenance agreement between IOG &#x26; Intersect<br>DS: Last update from Intersect procurement team was that the contract was still with the IOG legal team.</td><td>Action: Ricky to follow up with IOG legal team</td></tr><tr><td>4. Possible intra ERA Hard Fork</td><td>Discussion postponed due to Kevin not being able to attend</td><td></td></tr><tr><td>5. TSC Twitter Account</td><td>Discussion on setting delegated authority for posts.<br></td><td>Action - DS To provide a scope on this content to be shared: (eg weekly minutes, publication of recording, Milestone sign-off etc)<br>Action - Share</td></tr><tr><td>6. AoB</td><td>RR: Tried to vote in Intersect elections however not aware that new members were not able to vote - communication issue from Intersect?</td><td>Action: Duncan to share issue within Intersect team</td></tr></tbody></table>